The 4059 is a BCD programmed counter - https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd74h ... co.uk%252F - it's not a "frequency counter"!

The 4059 has the huge advantage that it's trivial to wire BCD-coded switches to it, and set suitable reference and division ratios to allow the switches to show the actual frequency that's dialled up!

I designed the 4059-based version of the PLL PRO III logic. Stephen had a whole heap of 6.4MHz rocks, so we used those - we could have saved a few pence by using a 4MHz rock and adding a couple of diodes and a resistor around the 4060 (reference oscillator and divider), but he wanted to use up the thousands of 6.4MHz parts he'd bought.

There are huge advantages to using discrete logic for your PLL - the parts are available everywhere, they're easily reprogrammed, there are no "special" programmed ICs (like PICs or ATmel parts), and they're easily open to modification.

Stephen and I used that PLL circuit on frequencies from the very lowest parts of Band I right the way up to the top of Band V. The VCO in the Pro III could easily be re-dimensioned for other frequencies, and I came up with a little "sub-board" with a 6456 on it that dropped into the 7474 "prescaler" position on the board. The highest frequency I got the push-pull oscillator to work of was around 600MHz (for a link rig), and the "coils" up there were just wire links close to the board! The oscillator transistors were replace with little BFR-series UHF transistors, and the driver and PA were changed also.....

Yes! Excuse my terminology!

The 4059 is not a 'Frequency counter' in the common sense, I believe it counts a pre-set number of pulses! Once it has completed that task, It gives a single pulse and then resets (Similar to a Stopwatch)

Anyways i was gonna build it up on breadboard but instead i will dig out one of my PLL PRO IIIs to measure the results on the oscilloscope!

I will post any measurements on here soon!

The 4059 was the first "MSI" (Medium Scale Integration) device I remember using way back in the late 70s. I came up with a cheap(ish) PLL for Band II that used the SP8629 to divide the output frequency by 100, then a transistor to step up the 5V squarewave to 12V for the CMOS logic, then the 4059 to divide by 875 to 1080 to give a 1kHz signal for the phase comparator. The reference came from a 4.096MHz crystal oscillator divided down in a 4060. The phase comparator was Comp II in a 4046. The loop filter used two LM324s and gave a really slow lock-up (about 8 seconds) to allow really low bass to go through the rig uncorrected!
My whole PLL was built on a little hand-etched PCB which was roughly 14cm X 9cm, and had four BCD-coded switches for frequency setting. I made quite a lot of these, and they were retro-fitted to lots of rigs in the late 70s and early 80s.

once a time i did saw this , but i forge where and if it really work , very similar to what alber say .

Nice find Mr Radium!

Looks compact! I think with a modern PCB it could made even smaller!

Of course its not a replacement for micro controller versions but could be a neat little project!

If you're after a simple CMOS based PLL (so no PIC programming etc) there's a design on the Wireless Waffle web-site with PCBs and kits available https://www.wirelesswaffle.com/index.ph ... 307-024945...

I like how it says it uses no obsolete parts, but then uses mpsh10 and 2n4427 which have been obsolete for ages

Nice schematic Rev!

Looks very similar to your design?

Today i dug out an old NRG PLL PRO III which is a similar circuit in operating principle!

Lets start with the 4060!
This is the reference oscillation derived from the 6.4Mhz crystal! Once it is divided by 1024 This is the baseline at which the transmitter uses to compare to! (6.25Khz)

radium98 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:59 pm once a time i did saw this , but i forge where and if it really work , very similar to what alber say .

That's VERY similar to my old board. It may be a copy (more or less) of one of mine - though the layout's a bit different, and I used BCD-coded switches to set the frequency directly: You just dialled up the actual frequency you want!

Now the 4059!
As I suspected! The 4059 counts the RF signals which has been divided by a previous stage and gives a short duration pulse at 12.5Khz This alone is not a square wave suitable for processing! This is handled by the following stage!

Now to the 74LS76!
The 74LS76 performs two functions! It divides the 12.5Khz from the 4059 to 6.25Khz But also produces a more suitable square wave ready for comparison with the 4060 reference!

As both signals are perfect for feeding to the final comparison, Its on to the next stage!

As long as you use PC2 on the 4046 (edge triggered) it doesn't matter whether its a square wave or not. Only needs to be a square wave if you're using PC1 (xor gate)

Finally the 74LS86!
The 74LS86 collects both signals and outputs a somewhat DC voltage to the Varicap of the RF section according to the phase difference between the two!

The green trace is the 4060 reference, The red trace is the processed RF signal! The green trace stays constant whilst the red tracks with instabilities in the RF section to keep them in phase!

Note! The wave forms do look out of phase? But im sure this was an error on my part? Maybe probe differences!
However i can confirm that in real time, Accuracy of the lock was satisfactory!

jvok wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:50 pm As long as you use PC2 on the 4046 (edge triggered) it doesn't matter whether its a square wave or not. Only needs to be a square wave if you're using PC1 (xor gate)

Thats an excellent point JVOK!

I was wondering how the SPI/RF HEAD version was achieving the same without 4059 square wave conversion!

I used to use the reset pulse from a diode-programmed 4040! It looked more like a glitch than a proper pulse, but PC2 of the 4046 worked fine! Later, when I started using the HC version of the 4040, I had to use a pulse-stretcher to get the phase comparator too work reliably (because the pulses were so short).

Later, I realised that I could get the same result by using the squarewave at the Most Significant (used) Diode cathode. The mark / space ratio varied with the division ratio, but it was always a nice squarewave!

After that, I started building my own Phase Comparator from a 7474 and a 7400 (HC versions usually), and this gave the very best results of all, together with really reliable Lock / Unlock output!
After a while (and because I needed to steal some space on a board), I did this:
Both work really well!

Albert H wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:45 am I used to use the reset pulse from a diode-programmed 4040! It looked more like a glitch than a proper pulse, but PC2 of the 4046 worked fine! Later, when I started using the HC version of the 4040, I had to use a pulse-stretcher to get the phase comparator too work reliably (because the pulses were so short).

Later, I realised that I could get the same result by using the squarewave at the Most Significant (used) Diode cathode. The mark / space ratio varied with the division ratio, but it was always a nice squarewave!

After that, I started building my own Phase Comparator from a 7474 and a 7400 (HC versions usually), and this gave the very best results of all, together with really reliable Lock / Unlock output!

Phasecomp.png

After a while (and because I needed to steal some space on a board), I did this:

Phase Comparator and Loop Filter.png

Both work really well!

Hello.Is this ''descrete'' version of phase comparator better than a 4046 regarding phase noise?Can you post part values for the first schematic? I have some 4060,4040,4046,74HC00,74LS74 but most of them are the CMOS versions.

yellowbeard wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:03 am There is no VCO on that board, it's original manufacturer was these guys:
https://spi-electronics.com/
they are defunct now but googling "SPI PLL" does produce good results. Here is the circuit, overlay and a picture of it assembled:
https://www.piratenpraten.nl/schemas/3- ... SPI%20PLL/
Good luck getting that SAB6456 prescaler chip for cheap, I seen them at €22 Euro recently.

I bought a strip of '6456s recently for $0.55 each from a well-known American RF Parts vendor.

fmmpastouni wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:10 pm Hello.Is this ''descrete'' version of phase comparator better than a 4046 regarding phase noise?Can you post part values for the first schematic? I have some 4060,4040,4046,74HC00,74LS74 but most of them are the CMOS versions.

The discrete phase comparator is very good in regard to phase noise (partially because of the integrating effect of the loop filter). Its real attraction for me was the really reliable lock detection.

Albert H wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:21 am

fmmpastouni wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:10 pm Hello.Is this ''descrete'' version of phase comparator better than a 4046 regarding phase noise?Can you post part values for the first schematic? I have some 4060,4040,4046,74HC00,74LS74 but most of them are the CMOS versions.

The discrete phase comparator is very good in regard to phase noise (partially because of the integrating effect of the loop filter). Its real attraction for me was the really reliable lock detection.

Can you post a schematic with part values?