SINUS 5 WATT PLL

sinus trouble · Post by **sinus trouble** » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:55 pm

Hello Necks

I am proud to present the Sinus 5watt PLL!!!

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thewisepranker · Post by **thewisepranker** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:04 am

Nice work.

Not saying that your performance is inferior in any way, however you might see slightly better performance by increasing the width of the track in the bottom left hand corner of the first picture to the same as the rest of that transmission line, as the track impedance is a function of clearance (fixed to one setting in most layout programs), dielectric constant (fixed), copper thickness (fixed) and track width, not just clearance alone.
This stub (the reduced track width bit) will act as a complex load (i.e. R + jωL) with quite different values for R and L when compared to the rest of the transmission line, which won't result in the 50 Ohms like your nice impedance controlled track before it. Now, arguably, all tracks have series inductance, series resistance, leakage capacitance etc. that need to be taken into account, however that's a bit beyond what I'm getting at.

Have you thought about fitting a different output connector, to perhaps save space and/or improve performance? I know the pirates love their PL-259s but they aren't 50 Ohms, nor are they shielded very well. At around 100 MHz this isn't too much of a problem but it isn't ideal. You can get hold of N connectors that will fit in the same footprint for a similar price to the type of SO-239 you've fitted. SMA connectors would also do the job very well.

It's sensible of you to have put a series diode on the input rail.

Is it 5 Watts across the band?

Which program did you use to do the PCB layout?

sinus trouble · Post by **sinus trouble** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:19 am

Cheers Mr Pranker!

And your comments are certainly valid, it is my first prototype!

I replicated it on MS Paint following NRG and PIRA tolerances as best i could, keeping PLL loop as short as poss too, also added a lock indicator!

The output connector has always been a concern? not sure whether to change for N Type, SMA or maybe just solder pins?
As of now ive only tested on 100mhz? but will check output over full band!

teckniqs · Post by **teckniqs** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:07 am

Nice work Sinus, thought you'd been quiet lately.

...So you decided to go for this version instead, thought you were going for the "no-tune" design?

sinus trouble · Post by **sinus trouble** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:53 pm

Lol cheers Mr Teck!

This version is more of a one off project ive been meaning to do for some time!
I didnt have high expectations when i started lol but it works great, low noise and locks everytime!
The lock led is surprisingly stable too although it works backwards (goes off when in lock) i like to call it an 'energy saving' lamp lol

Hopefully 'No tune' should be comming soon!

thewisepranker · Post by **thewisepranker** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:31 am

You are a patient man to have done that in Paint.

Solder pins might be an option but it won't help your output return loss.

A third option might be a BNC. The trouble is, a lot of people struggle putting on a PL-259, let alone an SMA, N or BNC.

sinus trouble · Post by **sinus trouble** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:57 pm

Lol it did take many days and many test prints to get it to this stage!
But with practice its not too tricky!
The only real software ive experienced is Express PCB? which has limited RF components available?
Apart from custom components?
Is there any good software youd recommend Mr Pranker?

thewisepranker · Post by **thewisepranker** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:38 pm

I've designed plenty of RF boards using Easy-PC (http://www.numberone.com) in my old job but am lucky enough to have an Altium licence where I work now. It's the nuts - I wouldn't go back. The price tag though. If you have to ask...

I mess around at home with Proteus for non-RF stuff, both ISIS and ARES, primarily because I've conveniently got a dodgy copy and its simulator is pretty good for audio stuff if you remember to set the initial charge on your capacitors to a positive, sensible value.

As for free software, I don't really have an opinion as I've never tried any.

muttley · Post by **muttley** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:10 pm

Have you had the time to test weather or not its doing 5watts across the band?
i remember someone on the old forum saying they had created a 1W PLL,
I managed to get my hands on it,
to which i sent it over to my good friends in Holland for testing. Its just as well i did.

What bench equipment are you using ?

sinus trouble · Post by **sinus trouble** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:54 pm

Thankyou Mr Pranker for your advice!

I had a feeling youd say quality costs money lol nothing is free!
The word expensive is sometimes scary but i think that if something does the job? its usually worth paying for, support and updates makes a huge difference in the long run!

I learned the hard way using dodgey copies, crashing and losing data! As the yanks would say "It sucks" lol

sinus trouble · Post by **sinus trouble** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:16 pm

Hello Mr Muttley!

I did have a chance to test across the band!

It seems to sit stable around the 5watt mark from 87.5 to 102mhz!
It then drops off gradually to 4watt at 108mhz, 13.8v was the test voltage!

Your concerns regarding testing are correct! however its unlikely that the board you mention from the old forum is one from myself!
Also the 2n4427s ive used are CEN copies and inferior to the good old motorola!

I have very basic test equipment! Trusty multimeter, oscilloscope, SWR/Pwr meter and my ever deteriorating brain! lol

muttley · Post by **muttley** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:52 pm

You need to be very careful about what systematics that your putting out on this forum, As
with the very basic test equipment. You cant be 100% certain what your putting together is clean. And some young people may see what you post as gospel. And unlike the technical team i use that doesn't have to take to a forum to promote their work, I do feel that what your putting together is a working progress.
Kind regards.

sinus trouble · Post by **sinus trouble** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:41 pm

Hello Mr Muttley!
I have never ever promoted myself as an "RF engineer" Nor have i built for any third party!!
What people see on the internet is not my concern,they do so at thier own risk!!
I will no longer post any amatuer electronics, I shall leave it to your technical team!

thewisepranker · Post by **thewisepranker** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:16 am

muttley wrote:You need to be very careful about what systematics that your putting out on this forum, As
with the very basic test equipment. You cant be 100% certain what your putting together is clean. And some young people may see what you post as gospel.

I don't see what the issue is. Let people take it as gospel, they will learn a lot of life lessons from it.

When compiling a bibliography, people these days don't seem to be able to differentiate between a good quality source and one which has absolutely no credibility. I've seen people reference a Wikipedia article far more times than I wish were true, and on one occasion said Wikipedia article's own bibliography referenced Buzzfeed as its only source. I say bollocks to them.

teckniqs · Post by **teckniqs** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:59 am

The 1w version has been tested and is very clean. Keep up the good work Sinus, let me know if you want me to test the 5w version.

shorty · Post by **shorty** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:54 pm

Post as many schematics/photos as you like it's not fricking North Korea, if someone plonk builds a design he's found on the net and it doesn't work or function as it should he'll have to figure out how to fix it or he could ask a question on here, crack on sinus nice boards.

pjeva · Post by **pjeva** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:06 pm

Sinus, can you try to set output match to higher frequency, like 100mhz and then check if it is flat from 87.5 to 108?

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yellowbeard · Post by **yellowbeard** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:21 pm

As a plonk who sometimes builds stuff off the internet, I thought the crocodile clips, the lack of a box and the cushty swr meter were enough of a warning. And in my experience RF stuff that is produced in a factory to the most stringent of tolerances still requires testing, and in some cases rejecting. There is a separate section here if you want to troll the users.

teckniqs · Post by **teckniqs** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:27 pm

shorty wrote:Post as many schematics/photos as you like it's not fricking North Korea, if someone plonk builds a design he's found on the net and it doesn't work or function as it should he'll have to figure out how to fix it or he could ask a question on here, crack on sinus nice boards.

100% agreed, if people are building any kind of RF transmission equipment they should be checking it first regardless.

pjeva · Post by **pjeva** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:04 pm

In factories, every piece of rf equipment is separately tested. As there is no two transistors with exactly same characteristics, you cannot just conclude every piece will work as the first prototype. For hobby or learning use and low power, it is ok if you don't employ spectrum analysers, network analyser and other fancy-dancy things. Kit stuff by default cannot be use in professional aplications if you don't test it seriously. But to play and learn, there are good designs which will give 70% expected results if build carefully.

By the way, Sinus, your stuff looks good and keep going. Try to find Sprint layout 5 software for PCBs. Very easy one. If you want, i can send you download link over PM

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