Sinus 1watt PLL

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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:32 pm

rigmo wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:55 pm
sinus trouble wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:19 am The "Sinus PLL" is not perfect? But functions the way it was intended!
please, the term evolution, redesign.. something.. stings my eyes, when I see it I have nightmares. total repulsion. to be GOOD, it must also be beautiful..
Albert? can be a smaller, smd version be made??? it's like a dinosaur! it sucks terribly.
Rigmo, I respect your opinion! :)

If you dont like it? Dont build it! Makes no difference to me!

I agree, Some of the new SMT technology is fascinating! However, Whilst Stephen had access to new technology? He chose to keep things simple using components available to everyone!

Feel free to share your superior projects with schematics, gerber files and support! :)
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Albert H » Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:41 pm

Sinus

The reason that Stephen stayed with through-hole, conventional components (and no PICs!) was to allow anyone who could solder reasonably well to build a competent transmitter board, with reliable, consistent results. It also meant that if anything got broken, spares would be easily available anywhere in the world.
"Why is my rig humming?"
"Because it doesn't know the words!"
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by rigmo » Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:16 am

Albert H wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:41 pm Sinus

The reason that Stephen stayed with through-hole, conventional components (and no PICs!) was to allow anyone who could solder reasonably well to build a competent transmitter board, with reliable, consistent results. It also meant that if anything got broken, spares would be easily available anywhere in the world.
Im sure can be coils much smaller and also hand wound..

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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:31 pm

rigmo wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:16 am
Albert H wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:41 pm Sinus

The reason that Stephen stayed with through-hole, conventional components (and no PICs!) was to allow anyone who could solder reasonably well to build a competent transmitter board, with reliable, consistent results. It also meant that if anything got broken, spares would be easily available anywhere in the world.
Im sure can be coils much smaller and also hand wound..
When you say "Coils can be smaller" What do you mean?

If you decrease the diameter? Number of turns will need to increase!

SMT Components could dramatically reduce size? But as Albert mentioned previously, Smaller coils will result in a lower "Q" Factor!

Stripline coils could be used? Yet they are large too!
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Albert H » Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:34 am

The reasons for the larger air-spaced coils in the NRG oscillator was to provide a high Q, allow the use of fairly thick wire to prevent microphonic issues, and to allow for easy tapping every 2-turns of (effectively) a 12 turn coil, and allowing fractional adjustments in value - both for balancing purposes, and fine tuning range adjustments.

We tried various commercial pre-wound inductors, we tried PCB tracks instead of the coils, and we tried moulded chokes. NONE of the alternatives worked as well as the chain of 2-turn coils.

The final advantage of the coils was that by making them with different numbers of turns, you could make that oscillator cover any frequency from ~30 MHz up to ~ 600 MHz. I made a small run of link transmitters that used Lecher lines in the oscillator and as the collector load and matching coils further along the board. With a sensible choice of transistors, I got around 3 Watts out of the Band IV link rigs, which when fed to a TV Yagi, gave a strong signal (albeit very directional) that could be used over tens of miles!
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by fmmpastouni » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:05 am

Mr Albert H ,can you comment on using different kinds of diodes such as red LED,green LED,zener diode,1n4003 diode for modulation and tuning purposes in a FM VCO?Which one is better?I have read your comments on different topics in the past but i cant find them.

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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:20 am

fmmpastouni wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:05 am Mr Albert H ,can you comment on using different kinds of diodes such as red LED,green LED,zener diode,1n4003 diode for modulation and tuning purposes in a FM VCO?Which one is better?I have read your comments on different topics in the past but i cant find them.
Rigmo already listed many alternative Varicaps previously!

Whilst most diodes inhibit some sort of capacitive characteristics! I would recommend avoiding general purpose rectifier diodes such as the 1N4001 Etc....
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Albert H » Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:49 am

Sinus is right - most rectifier diodes are a bit too noisy for use in an FM modulator. However, 15V zeners generally show a good range of capacitance when reverse biased. Green LEDs are also pretty good, but paint them black if there's any chance of light getting on to them.
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:21 am

I have never tested such diodes before? But it may be worth keeping an eye on the switching time of the diodes you intend to use? (Shown in datasheet)

No doubt most will be able to cope with frequencies in the Mhz region! But you never know? :)
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Albert H » Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:26 am

Sinus: You're NOT switching them! You're reverse-biasing them and then using the depletion layer as a capacitor! The size and density of the depletion layer will vary somewhat according to the applied reverse-bias voltage, so as long as you're nowhere near the reverse breakdown voltage of the diode, you're going to get a voltage-variable, small value capacitor.
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:56 pm

Albert H wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:26 am Sinus: You're NOT switching them! You're reverse-biasing them and then using the depletion layer as a capacitor! The size and density of the depletion layer will vary somewhat according to the applied reverse-bias voltage, so as long as you're nowhere near the reverse breakdown voltage of the diode, you're going to get a voltage-variable, small value capacitor.
Haha! Yes you are right Albert! It is not really necessary!

A kinda false habit of mine! :lol:
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Gigahertz » Mon May 26, 2025 10:13 am

I have two boards made up

One with KV1310's and the other with KV1330's. Just trying them out at top, middle and bottom of the band for testing and find on both the PLL won't lock at the bottom ended of the band.

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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Tue May 27, 2025 2:30 pm

Hello Gigahertz :)

Sorry to hear you are experiencing issues, I have the very first one i built in front of me now. (Contains KV1330s)

With DIP switch set to 87.5 and purple trimmer fully meshed at max capacitance, The PLL is locked and stable. Loop voltage is sitting at approx 5.8V and should vary if you adjust the trimmer. (Measured from R6)

The audio bias on the second KV1330 is around 3.8 to 4V and should stay constant (Measured from R7)

I will also check another PCB to confirm once i return home just to verify?
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Gigahertz » Tue May 27, 2025 7:34 pm

Hi Sinus,

Sorry my earlier message didn't read correctly now I've read it.

I have one PCB using KV1330's that is working fine across 87.5MHz to 108Mhz. Looking at this one it shows R7 = 4.057v and on R8(R6?) = 5v, and the PLL locks every time.

The other has KV1310's it will only lock between 94MHz to 108MHz. Adjusting the coils closer together it will go as low to 93MHz but thats it.

Have some more KV1330 and MV104 on the way, so will do a swap out with KV1310's and see if this changes things.

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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by yellowbeard » Tue May 27, 2025 8:18 pm

You should be stretching the coils to make it go lower, and the KV1330 has a a much higher capacitance at 4 Volts - it should go lower with that part. Whats the minimum frequency you can get with it unlocked?

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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Tue May 27, 2025 9:48 pm

Yes my apologies for the typo! R8 is correct! :)

Sounds like its working as it should on the KV1330s But as expected others may perform different?

If you wish, You could tack on a small capacitor to either the trimmer or varicap underside pads to compensate?

If so? I would suggest setting the PLL to 98Mhz and the trimmer to its centre position then measure the loop voltage which should be approx half DC supply voltage (6-7V Typical) to aim for!

Remember that as the loop voltage increases, the varicap decreases in capacitance! And vice versa!
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by Albert H » Wed May 28, 2025 12:58 am

yellowbeard wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 8:18 pm You should be stretching the coils to make it go lower, and the KV1330 has a a much higher capacitance at 4 Volts - it should go lower with that part. Whats the minimum frequency you can get with it unlocked?
Stretching the coils will reduce their inductance, so you will got UP in frequency! Squeezing the coil windings together will increase their inductance, so frequency will go DOWN.

It should be remembered in that circuit that all the coils have to be identically sized for best results and minimum ½f breakthrough. When correctly constructed with accurately matched transistors, inductors, capacitors and resistors, the breakthrough of unwanted signals is really tiny. Physical layout is also crucial - it has to be perfectly symmetrical.

The basic design of the oscillator also optimises currents through the transistors to keep their shot noise to a minimum, giving a remarkably "quiet" carrier, that when unmodulated just sounds like a "hole" in the white noise. The circuit also has a few other, less obvious benefits, including half frequency generation - eliminating the risk of RF feedback from the nearby PA into the oscillator.

The circuit - as constructed here by "Sinus" and by thousands of constructors of the NRG Kits - is open to improvements. One modification I made to the Pro III version was to use FETs as the "sniff" transistors, to sample the oscillators, and minimise the loading on the oscillator, and improve its isolation, because of the extremely high input impedance of the FETs. I did a further redesign to eliminate the trimmer capacitor, which increased the available capacitance "swing" of the tuning varicaps by increasing the range of bias voltage available by means of use of a DC-DC converter that stepped the available tuning voltage to as much as 32V.

Also - just for the sake of experimentation (and for amusement), I built a version of the oscillator using medium power RF devices (configured as Darlington pairs to keep the hfe high enough), and built an oscillator that delivered over 32 Watts! The spectral purity was remarkably good, and with the addition of a few poles of lowpass filtering, it would be "clean" enough to use as a complete low power transmitter! Unfortunately, loading on the oscillator would have to be very accurately matched, and it would be difficuly to tune with varicap diodes (without running into reverse-breakdown issues with the Varicaps). It really was a very silly experiment!
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by yellowbeard » Thu May 29, 2025 5:46 pm

Albert got me there... :oops: I would still like to know if the oscillator will go that low free running, and what the voltage is on the FFM pin of the PLL...

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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Fri May 30, 2025 1:50 pm

yellowbeard wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 5:46 pm Albert got me there... :oops: I would still like to know if the oscillator will go that low free running, and what the voltage is on the FFM pin of the PLL...
Well i cannot get it to "free run" as such?

With the purple trimmer fully meshed (Highest capacitance) and the PLL set to 82.5Mhz, It locks instantly still with 4V (FFM) left on the Varicap!

Maybe if i pulled the SAA1057 out of circuit it may go lower? But id imagine it would be terribly unstable with an open circuit or floating Varicap?

If that makes sense?? :lol:
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Re: Sinus 1watt PLL

Post by sinus trouble » Fri May 30, 2025 2:47 pm

sinus trouble wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 1:50 pm
yellowbeard wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 5:46 pm Albert got me there... :oops: I would still like to know if the oscillator will go that low free running, and what the voltage is on the FFM pin of the PLL...
Well i cannot get it to "free run" as such?

With the purple trimmer fully meshed (Highest capacitance) and the PLL set to 82.5Mhz, It locks instantly still with 4V (FFM) left on the Varicap!

Maybe if i pulled the SAA1057 out of circuit it may go lower? But id imagine it would be terribly unstable with an open circuit or floating Varicap?

If that makes sense?? :lol:
Not FFM! The phase comparator out! :smoke
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